Christians (the few left)...?

Read ALL of this and tell me God is real and good! If God wants something from me, he would tell me. He wouldn't leave someone else to do this, as if an infinite being were short on time. And he would certainly not leave fallible, sinful humans to deliver an endless plethora of confused and contradictory messages. God would deliver the message himself, directly, to each and every one of us, and with such clarity as the most brilliant being in the universe could accomplish. We would all hear him out and shout "Eureka!" So obvious and well-demonstrated would his message be. It would be spoken to each of us in exactly those terms we would understand. And we would all agree on what that message was. Even if we rejected it, we would all at least admit to each other, "Yes, that's what this God fellow told me."[2] Excuses don't fly. The Christian proposes that a supremely powerful being exists who wants us to set things right, and therefore doesn't want us to get things even more wrong. This is an intelligible hypothesis, which predicts there should be no more confusion about which religion or doctrine is true than there is about the fundamentals of medicine, engineering, physics, chemistry, or even meteorology. It should be indisputably clear what God wants us to do, and what he doesn't want us to do. Any disputes that might still arise about that would be as easily and decisively resolved as any dispute between two doctors, chemists, or engineers as to the right course to follow in curing a patient, identifying a chemical, or designing a bridge. Yet this is not what we observe. Instead, we observe exactly the opposite: unresolvable disagreement and confusion. That is clearly a failed prediction. A failed prediction means a false theory. Therefore, Christianity is false. Typically, Christians try to make excuses for God that protect our free will. Either the human will is more powerful than the will of God, and therefore can actually block his words from being heard despite all his best and mighty efforts, or God cares more about our free choice not to hear him than about saving our souls, and so God himself "chooses" to be silent. Of course, there is no independent evidence of either this remarkable human power to thwart God, or this peculiar desire in God, and so this is a completely "ad hoc" theory: something just "made up" out of thin air in order to rescue the actual theory that continually fails to fit the evidence. But for reasons I'll explore later, such "added elements" are never worthy of belief unless independently confirmed: you have to know they are true. You can't just "claim" they are true. Truth is not invented. It can only be discovered. Otherwise, Christianity is just a hypothesis that has yet to find sufficient confirmation in actual evidence. Be that as it may. Though "maybe, therefore probably" is not a logical way to arrive at any belief, let's assume the Christian can somehow "prove" (with objective evidence everyone can agree is relevant and true) that we have this power or God has this desire. Even on that presumption, there are unsolvable problems with this "additional" hypothesis. Right from the start, it fails to explain why believers disagree. The fact that believers can't agree on the content of God's message or desires also refutes the theory that he wants us to be clear on these things. This failed prediction cannot be explained away by any appeal to free will--for these people have chosen to hear God, and not only to hear him, but to accept Jesus Christ as the shepherd of their very soul. So no one can claim these people chose not to hear God. Therefore, either God is telling them different things, or there is no God. Even if there is a God, but he is deliberately sowing confusion, this contradicts what Christianity predicts to be God's desire, which entails Christianity is the wrong religion. Either way, Christianity is false. So this theory doesn't work. It fails to predict what we actually observe. But even considering atheists like me, this "ad hoc" excuse still fails to save Christianity from the evidence. When I doubted the Big Bang theory, I voiced the reasons for my doubts but continued to pursue the evidence, frequently speaking with several physicists who were "believers." Eventually, they presented all the logic and evidence in terms I understood, and I realized I was wrong: the Big Bang theory is well-supported by the evidence and is at present the best explanation of all the facts by far. Did these physicists violate my free will? Certainly not. I chose to pursue the truth and hear them out. So, too, I and countless others have chosen to give God a fair hearing--if only he would speak. I would listen to him even now, at this very moment. Yet he remains silent. Therefore, it cannot be claimed that I am "choosing" not to hear him. And therefore, the fact that he still does not speak refutes the hypothesis. Nothing about free will can save the theory here. Even when we might actually credit free will with resisting God's voice--like the occasional irrational atheist, or the stubbornly mistaken theist--the Christian theory is still not compatible with the premise that God would not or could not overcome this resistance. Essential to the Christian hypothesis, as C.S. Lewis says, is the proposition that God is "quite definitely good" and "loves love and hates hatred." Unless these statements are literally meaningless, they entail that God would behave like anyone else who is "quite definitely good" and "loves love and hates hatred." And such people don't give up on someone until their resistance becomes intolerable--until then, they will readily violate someone's free will to save them, because they know darned well it is the right thing to do. God would do the same. He would not let the choice of a fallible, imperfect being thwart his own good will. I know this for a fact. Back in my days as a flight-deck firefighter, when our ship's helicopter was on rescue missions, we had to stand around in our gear in case of a crash. There was usually very little to do, so we told stories. One I heard was about a rescue swimmer. She had to pull a family out of the water from a capsized boat, but by the time the chopper got there, it appeared everyone had drowned except the mother, who was for that reason shedding her life vest and trying to drown herself. The swimmer dove in to rescue her, but she kicked and screamed and yelled to let her die. She even gave the swimmer a whopping black eye. But the swimmer said to hell with that, I'm bringing you in! And she did, enduring her curses and blows all the way. Later, it turned out that one of the victim's children, her daughter, had survived. She had drifted pretty far from the wreck, but the rescue team pulled her out, and the woman who had beaten the crap out of her rescuer apologized and thanked her for saving her against her will. Everyone in my group agreed the rescue swimmer had done the right thing, and we all would have done the same--because that is what a loving, caring being does. It follows that if God is a loving being, he will do no less for us. In the real world, kind people don't act like some stubborn, pouting God who abandons the drowning simply because they don't want to be helped. They act like this rescue swimmer. They act like us. So we can be certain God would make sure he told everyone, directly, what his message was. Everyone would then know what God had told them. They can still reject it all they want, and God can leave them alone. But there would never be, in any possible Christian universe, any confusion or doubt as to what God's message was. And if we had questions, God himself would answer them--just like the Big Bang physicists who were so patient with me. Indeed, the very fact that God gave the same message and answers to everyone would be nearly insurmountable proof that Christianity was true. Provided we had no reason to suspect God of lying to all of us, Christianity would be as certain as the law of gravity or the color of the sky. That is what the Christian hypothesis entails we should observe--for it is what a good and loving God would do, who wanted us all to set right what has gone wrong. And since this is not what we observe, but in fact the exact opposite, the evidence quite soundly refutes Christianity. Despite this conclusion, Christians still try to hold on to their faith with this nonsense about free will--but they haven't thought it through. Meteorologists can disagree about the weather forecast, but they all agree how weather is made and the conditions that are required for each kind of weather to arise. And they agree about this because the scientific evidence is so vast and secure that it resolves these questions, often decisively. It can't be claimed that God has violated the free will of meteorologists by providing them with all this evidence. And yet how much more important is salvation than the physics of weather! If God wants what Christianity says he wants, he would not violate our free will to educate us on the trivial and then refuse to do the same for the most important subject of all. Likewise, if a doctor wants a patient to get well, he is not vague about how he must do this, but as clear as can be. He explains what is needed in terms the patient can understand. He even answers the patient's questions, and whenever asked will present all the evidence for and against the effectiveness of the treatment. He won't hold anything back and declare, "I'm not going to tell you, because that would violate your free will!" Nor would any patient accept such an excuse--to the contrary, he would respond, "But I choose to hear you," leaving the doctor no such excuse. There can't be any excuse for God, either. There are always disagreements, and there are always people who don't follow what they are told or what they know to be true. But that doesn't matter. Chemists all agree on the fundamental facts of chemistry. Doctors all agree on the fundamental facts of medicine. Engineers all agree on the fundamental facts of engineering. So why can't all humans agree on the fundamental facts of salvation? There is no more reason that they should be confused or in the dark about this than that chemists, doctors, and engineers should be confused or in the dark. The logically inevitable fact is, if the Christian God existed, we would all hear from God himself the same message of salvation, and we would all hear, straight from God, all the same answers to all the same questions. The Chinese would have heard it. The Native Americans would have heard it. Everyone today, everywhere on Earth, would be hearing it, and their records would show everyone else in history had heard it, too. Sure, maybe some of us would still balk or reject that message. But we would still have the information. Because the only way to make an informed choice is to have the required information. So a God who wanted us to make an informed choice would give us all the information we needed, and not entrust fallible, sinful, contradictory agents to convey a confused mess of ambiguous, poorly supported claims. Therefore, the fact that God hasn't spoken to us directly, and hasn't given us all the same, clear message, and the same, clear answers, is enough to prove Christianity false. Just look at what Christians are saying. They routinely claim that God is your father and best friend. Yet if that were true, we would observe all the same behaviors from God that we observe from our fathers and friends. But we don't observe this. Therefore, there is no God who is our father or our friend. The logic of this is truly unassailable, and no "free will" excuse can escape it. For my father and friends aren't violating my free will when they speak to me, help me, give me advice, and answer my questions. Therefore, God would not violate my free will if he did so. He must be able to do at least as much as they do, even if for some reason he couldn't do more. But God doesn't do anything at all. He doesn't talk to, teach, help, or comfort us, unlike my real father and my real friends. God doesn't tell us when we hold a mistaken belief that shall hurt us. But my father does, and my friends do. Therefore, no God exists who is even remotely like my father or my friends, or anyone at all who loves me. Therefore, Christianity is false. The conclusion is inescapable. If Christianity were true, then the Gospel would have been preached to each and every one of us directly, and correctly, by God--just as it supposedly was to the disciples who walked and talked and dined with God Himself, or to the Apostle Paul, who claimed to have had actual conversations with God, and to have heard the Gospel directly from God Himself. Was their free will violated? Of course not. Nor would ours be. Thus, if Christianity were really true, there would be no dispute as to what the Gospel is. There would only be our free and informed choice to accept or reject it. At the same time, all our sincere questions would be answered by God, kindly and clearly, and when we compared notes, we would find that the Voice of God gave consistent answers and messages to everyone all over the world, all the time. So if Christianity were true, there would be no point in "choosing" whether God exists anymore than there is a choice whether gravity exists or whether all those other people exist whom we love or hate or help or hurt. We would not face any choice to believe on insufficient and ambiguous evidence, but would know the facts, and face only the choice whether to love and accept the God that does exist. That this is not the reality, yet it would be the reality if Christianity were true, is proof positive that Christianity is false. You have to read it ALL to see my position.

Public Comments

1. E,S,& D.
2. What was the question again?
3. You are trying to use science and logic with a Being that demands faith. God is real and He is good. I know this from my own experiences with God...you have to build your own relationship to find our what you think. I hope you find your faith and are able to develop this personal relationship...life is empty without Him.
4. Go write a book and go on a speaking tour.....but I still disagree with your position. Sorry.
5. No you do you have a choice, Jesus the God of the universe gave his life for you, and you reject him. We are sinners like it or not, that's why death exists.
6. 1 your question is waaaaay to long, and God did speak to men and guess what they rejected it, then he sent Jesus who clearly stated "you must be born again" and guess what people rejected it, dull of hearing and dim of sight because it does not fit into there fleshly desires.
7. Good God! I fell asleep after the 2nd paragraph! You have an amazing ability to bore people to death Don't waste it.
8. Now I would probably consider myself agnostic but one thing i want to say is instead of having to write paragraph after paragraph of stuff to try and convince ppl that this religion is false and what not i will only use one paragraph We know for a fact that we are here...we cannot deny our existence...so something had to put us here...we may as well call that person GOD or LORD. oh and people who write this type of stuff to convince ppl that there is free will and no god then those ppl are scared of what their eternal destiny will end up like....now whether that be hell or not u will indeed not like that place
9. Dear Ex, He has been telling you all of your life but you aren't listening. That inkling that you have not to go home the normal way. Don't go to Kmart but go to walmart,etc. He is in your thoughts man and you don't even recognize Him. You respect Him because you capitalize His name. So you must know a little of Him. Get out of yourself and listen to your thoughts. He is the good ones. He is I am. You quit being I am and you will see Him and hear Him.
10. Sorry I fell asleep
11. It boils down to, free will. God gave us free will. Another thing you're talking about is sin. We're all sinners. Christians don't make "excuses" for God. God is God. We are the ones that will have to answer to God for our excuses. It's your choice whether you believe in God or not. I believe in God and I know He exists. God Bless
12. Is this a question or a lecture? If it's a question it is well hidden in your statements.
13. Wow! That’s quite a dissertation. Obviously nothing I write will change your mind, but I do want to respond anyway. I am a Christian, which means that I follow the teachings of Christ and the example He set. I do not believe that Christ is God, but rather the Son of God. My beliefs are based on faith which cannot be measured and is certainly not logical. I believe that God created man and woman, but I do not believe that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman to be created, but rather the first of God's chosen people. That is a subtle but distinct difference. I do not attend a church for I have yet to find one with a doctrine that I totally agree with. That does not mean that I am not a Christian for one has little to do with the other. Christ gave us one commandment to replace all the others, "to love one another as I have loved you". I believe that God does speak to me. Most people call it their conscience. It's a small, quiet voice in the back of my mind that tells me what is right and what is wrong. I use it a lot everyday. Again there is no measurable evidence that it exists or that it is God talking to me, but I believe it is, or at least find comfort and strength in the thought that it is. Christianity cannot be found in books or buildings; they are all written and built by men. My Christianity is simply a way of life, living it to benefit others and not myself. You can't find it in doctrine, because doctrine is just man's attempt to understand something beyond his reality. I am certainly not perfect, but I can keep trying. Success is not the destination, it's the journey and sometimes I have a long way to go. I cannot say that there is a universal Christianity; it would be a lot simpler if there was. All religion is based on faith and faith is a very personal thing. I can only tell you what it is to me.
14. And if men would study the scripture as diligently as they studied all the sciences and would let the Spirit of God speak to them while they did these studies and not allow their own stinking pride get in the way then they would see the truth and know that God is real and that he does love them and he just wants man to love him back. Thus, men would slow down. And recogni ze Tha t Looooooking for God Is v v v v very Mmmmuch lllllike sssseeeeking a wife. Many choices but only one wife.
15. God did at one time walk with us and we still slapped Him in the face with the sin of disobedience (adam & eve) Original sin hurt Him, made Him sad that we would choose to listen to a lying snake instead of Him so He withdrew visably from our presence and required us to prove our love for Him by faith.May God bless you in your quest for the truth.
16. God hears you cry out to Him and will answer...
17. God is love. God loves you. If He forced himself into your mind, you would logically be forced to acknowledge His Lordship. Think of it as emotional rape. Instead God has given all mankind the Bible, a detailed narrative revealing His nature, and His only son, our Lord Jesus Christ, to reconcile us to Him. Jesus loved all men, healed the sick, raised the dead, fed multitudes and predicted the future, but men found 'logical' reasons not to believe Him. God wants us to love Him because we want to. As a believer, I don't expect every bump in my road to be smoothed out, but I do expect that every bump will work "for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose". Suffering and misfortunes in my life have made me a better person, and He has blessed me beyond my expectations, but I am still learning and still fighting my sinful nature. I pray to the LORD every day to make me a better servant to Him and for His blessing on other people. I try to read His word every day. As morning light shines through my window, I pray "Dear Lord, today help me to love you with all my heart and to love other people with all my heart, because that is the purpose of my life." Every person I meet is another opportunity to give love. The only proof necessary of God's existence is that those who seek Him, find Him. "Behold I stand at the door and knock, and if anyone opens the door I will enter and eat with him."
18. I read an article that is a good answer to your question. You can see it here http://clarionjournal.typepad.com/clarion_journal_of_spirit/2007/10/hearing-gods-vo.html
19. Man or Woman , whom ever you are. Go get a life and stop trying to blame God for everything. there is a time and season for everyything. Go find yours.
20. Yes, I got bored also trying to read the whole question. But I do have one thing to say concerning Carlton73's answer. I also am a Christian, and I do not go to Church but study the Bible at home with my family. I believe that Adam and Eve were the first people as it says in the Bible that Eve was the mother of all living.